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interesting comments and nice observations. the central point boils down to what is the definition of messiah, and that the christian one is not the same as the jewish one.
included within the jewish one are:
(1) 1 trip,
(2) messiah is a man,
(3) no time bounds on the 613 mitzvot (applicable both b4 and after messiah and not replaceable by anything),
(4) palpable world peace,
(5) reviving the dead (everyone else's, not that of messiah),
(6) rebuilding temple,
(7) causing the world to understand g-d's position (both jews and non-jews),
(8) bringing jews to perform more mitzvot (not less)
(9) no addition or subtraction of laws (torah/talmud/navi)
(10) patrilineal descent of messiah from david (the start of the new testament details david to joseph to jesus -- but i thought joseph wasn't the father?!!)
(not meant to be a definitive list, just an illustrative one)
the christian definition blatantly deviates from the above. this is fine theologically
speaking as far as judiasm is concerned - nonjews can do as they will (assuming the 7 noachite
laws are followed).
it is irksome that the j4j movement has the unmitigated gall to tell jews what it says in
the torah/talmud/navi - how do _they_ know!! did they study tanach? did they complete shas??
i would never try to tell a christian abt the new testament, wouldn't tell a muslim abt the koran,
so who made this j4j movement educated "experts" anyway!
- d. b. -0/6-/2001 |
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It seems that each group or subgroup of Christians define what is a true Christian. As often or not this also defines how these groups deal with Jews. I feel that the byproduct of each religion is also the resposibility of that faith. Those that come from a faith, for example who feel that must wipe out a race or ethic group. Either by violence or subversion. My question is what is wrong with that background to produce these people? Why would I want to become one of them? What do they have to offer? The Torah has given me everything aready.
- a. s. -0/6-/2001 |
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The only solution to the missionary problem is Torah. It is only by misrepresenting Torah concepts such as atonement and Moshiach that missionaries succeed in winning Jewish souls. If these lost Jews had ever bothered to examine the T'nakh itself they would see that the opinions of Chazal our sages represpent the proper interpretation by those truely educated in T'nakh. This stands in contrast to the interpretations of Chrisitans extremely biased by Christian theology, allmost allways unable to read the original language, and willing to bend the text to any length to reach a Christian interpretation.
The only way that one could accept a Christian interpretation is if that was how the text was first presented to you and your emotions won't allow you to accept any other.
- Y. A. -0/6-/2001 |
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Preceding post identifies Christianity as idolatrous. It is this only for Jews, not for those who are not vis-a-viz Maimonides. Jews should NOT be Christians but Christian are not defacto idolatrous though certain practices of certain denominations may be considered such. Must be careful to use appropriate halachic language when discusing non Jewish religion. Non Jews are permitted many things Jews are not. Both Jews and non Jews need to know this so as not to needlessly encumber each other or rendered unjust judgements.
- J. M. -0/6-/2001 |
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The bottom line is where are you going to spend eternity.
There are only three choices when faced with the Question that Jesus asked "Who do you say that I am"
1. He was a liar who claimed to be God but was not.
2. He was a lunatic who thoguht He was God but was not or.
3. He was and is what he claimed to be "God"
Christianity and Judaism both cannot be true because they are opposed to each other. Either Christiantiyt is true or it is not.
If it is not true then we are to be pitied above all people for we have bought in to the biggest hoax of all. If it is true then it is for all men because Christiantity;s claim is that there is aonly one way and that is through the resurrected Lord.
- D. P. -0/6-/2001 |
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I see Jews for Jesus as a holocaust
of the souls of the Jews. As one in
the process of conversion, I find it
insulting to hear that Judaism and
Christianity are from one root. And
I am constantly bombarded with the
coming of the end of the world and
threatened that I shall not be "saved".Time to become Christian is
of the essence. Very revolting messages. Arafat can kill the Jews
with no conscience~ Christians want
the end of the Jews as well.
- P. Z. -0/6-/2001 |
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I attended a Private Christian School From the age of three to the age of twelve. Our Pastor at the time had received a Doctorate of Divinity from Bob Jones University in America.
The christian religion is based on the New Testament King James Version Bible.
Considering the source and numerous translations I became fascinated with the Jewish Publications Society and their interpretations to english. The Tanakh is now the Word that I trust and believe.
At the age of 33 and a 133 IQ, this is the most Ultra Infatic Decision in my life.
When questioning a Freemason I learned of the Mithraism involved and our political leaders submission to this practice.
After reading the book authored by Admiral Richard B. Byrd (Land Beyond The Poles) I realised The Prince of Darkness is and will be among us until Hashem is ready to fulfill the Covenant with his chosen people for keeping the Covenant Commanded of Hashem.
All hearts will be filled with his Torah at that chosen time. May we eneavor to persevere.
Anyone willing to help me convert the orthodox way please help me. This is my goal in life. I would give my 250k in assets to learn, convert and to live among a people that follow the Torah. The only true way to peace and understanding. The reward being able to sustain a truly righteos way of life with no doubts.
Shalom
- L. H. -0/6-/2001 |
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Dear Rabbi Shafran,
I was raised a Catholic. From my teachers, I learned that the Jews are the chosen people. Now. why would I have anything against G-d's chosen people? People are fallen, and they do terrible things to one another. That does not change the fact that the Hebrews are our first teachers. If modern day Jews don't accept Jesus, so be it. I'm sure that as Rabbi Lapin says, they must be secure enough in their belief and teaching to patiently listen to a kindred spirit. In all due respects, my family is your friend!
When I was a teenager, my Jewish friend used to proudly take me to meet his Rabbi. His Rabbi was always such a gentleman.
Sincerely,
Curt Biele
- C. B. -0/6-/2001 |
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A quick review of the Torah and the Neviim, should provide the quiet simple clue.
Christianities concept wasn't new. It was another Jewish Rebellion against the Torah Law.
The Torah and Neviim cite many cases of Jews turning to false worship and practices.
There were many other movements that tried and failed (Hellenism, Baal etc.),Christianity needed a leader, it needed an appeal and some good pitch men like the apostle Paul.
There is enough credible evidence now to show that the Christian movement was mostly invented by Paul.
A minimal examination of many movements or other social disorders shows -- they rebelled and cast off the "rules". As did the Jews who chose to follow Baal, Hellenism, or other movements.
It should also be noted that most of these movements were started and supported by the rich, influential and or intellecutals who were seeking to justify their various kinds of aberrant behavior. From simple things like not wanting to lose a buck on Shabbat to being gay.
They found ways to rationalize and justify what they wanted.
And, as a former counselor -- I found that the hardest problem to deal with among clients -- rationalization and justification.
Fact, specific law could be dealt with. But, dealing with the anglers, nigglers, who looked for every way to twist the intent of what they were doing -- was extremely difficult to counter.
It is also not unlike the experience of dealing with a child who badgers a parent incessantly with so and so does it -- their parents don't mind. It doesn't change who I am -- kind of discussions.
Only Hashem is not interested in reasons/justification that sounds good.
He wants obedience (which is better than sacrifice --(Samuels words to Saul) -- to His sound reason.
- G. M. -0/6-/2001 |
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Great article! I want to say that after being raised as a Baptist, at 14 years of age I began a long journey to find the truth. I was devout, but something was not right Historically and Theologically with Christianity. I became a Catholic as part of that journey, and entered Seminery. What I found was astounding. I was put out of the school for searching the truth. I went thru several groups and I can say I even went thru the socalled Messeyanic groups, and I learned a lot, but HaShem led me to a Jewish Roots group, and I found my answer In Judaism. I may be a Noahchide for now, but my desire is to be very close to HaShem and even take that step fully to Judaism. To any of my Jewish friends out there...Christianity is not where it is at. Jesus (not his real name) was a Jew, of the school of Hillel and he never founded any Christian Church. (It was Paul who did). Sorry for such a long comment, but I have compassion for Jews who fall into the false and idolatrous trap of christianity. Shalom
- J. D. -0/6-/2001 |
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Dispite what the church or Christians have said and done, don't let it cloud the truth. I don't judge the Torah by what a Jew does or doesn't do, but the Torah stands on its own. To dismis the Christian belief simply because of what I do or don't do doesn't take away from the truth. We are told to "study to show ourselves approved"... to which I do by studying the Torah. I'm told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.. to which I do. I am grateful to the Jews for my Christian heritage that was given through them. But to lump us all together as a bunch of misguided people bent on doing harm to the Jews does a disservice to those Christians that have also laid down their lives to protect the Jews. Those Christians that have laid down their lives during the times of persecution of the Jews, those Christians that support Israel and the right of return of the Jews to their homeland are true Christians.
Hugh Martin, gentile beleiver
- H. M. -0/6-/2001 |
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1) My grandfather - on my fathers side was killed in Budapest, Hungary in a pogrom led by a Catholic Priest - Father Kun.
2) My grandfather on my mothers side was killed in Auschwitz. The deportations were super-vised by Hungarian police. The list of Jews was supplied by the Catholic priest of the little town near Kisvarda.
If the murders by the Christians during world war II was done for religious reasons, how can anybody claim that WWII was not a Christian war against the Jews?
- a. l. -0/6-/2001 |
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It would seem to me to make more sense for the Jews for Jesus to become Jewish first (was not Jesus Jewish?) before they embrace him as their messiah. Their credibility would improve greatly if as a first step they observed Shabbat on the day ordained by Hashem, observed Kashrut (as well as they could), and kept Passover and Yom Kippur (all Biblical commands). After these minimal steps, then they would have some standing to proselitize. Tell them that Judaism was good enough for Jesus (and that answers the question of "what would Jesus do"), so why is it not good enough for them?
- G. B. -0/6-/2001 |
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Well said Rabbi. I am most afraid of jj's co-relating their beliefs to mainstream Judaism. I think we will better define ourselves once we firmly establish that Judaism is NOT a "race" but, indeed, a "people" which embraces ONE G-D and only "one" G-d.
- l. f. -0/6-/2001 |
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Thank you for saying what must be said,
loudly and often.
- G. B. -0/6-/2001 |
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Thank you, Rabbi Shafran for continuing to be outspoken on such important issues
- Y. M. -0/6-/2001 |
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THANK YOU FOR WRITING THIS ARTICLE!
-0/6-/2001 |
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Wonderful article! Our rabbi has an joint Jewish/Christian service at Thanksgiving at the Christian church one year, our synagoge, the next.I always refuse to attend. So many time I hear about the "Jewish roots" of Christianity, etc. and it makes me angry. I was a Roman Catholic nun when G-d showed me the truth of Judaism. The roots of Christianity do not lie in Judaism but in paganism!
- R. H. -0/6-/2001 |
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Thank you for you article. As a Christian I am always suspect of those with differening views who seek to convert me to their point of view .. I suspect they are generally uncertain and want others to share their uncertainity so they can point to numbers and say "I am RIGHT"! I am often troubled by my tradition's failure to live up the peace Jesus taught. The best Christian I knew as a teenager growing up in a small town was one of our local Jewish merchants, who by deed did all the things Jesus said we should do for each other.
One comment about your quote from John's gospel ... Jesus said this, not about the Jews, but about some of their leaders who failed to be compassionate leaders.
- B. W. -0/6-/2001 |
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My great-grandfather was driven from his home
for having a brand of "Christianity" that was not
acceptable to his neighbors. I am a practicing
Christian, but of the same views as my great-grandfather.
I see Christians as being as narrow-minded as they
accuse the Jews of being: They claim to believe in
their Bible, but they give no thanks whatever to the
nation of Judah whose travails made it possible for them
to have that Bible. Instead, they shut off the Heavens,
saying unequivocably that our Creator no longer needs or
is inclined to speak to man.
Methinks that most Christians
have gone as far afield of truth as they accuse their Jewish
brethren of having gone.
Christians who want to "convert" Jews to their religion would
do well to understand the Jews and their history first.
-0/6-/2001 |
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What? You don't want to be 'helped'out of your religious beliefs?
Seriously, most Christians I know don't know enough about the Jewish faith to try to breach the subject yet they claim to know better than Jews do about what Jewish people should believe and practice. I agree that they (Christians) should at least try to learn and follow the basics if they profess to adhere (even just historically) to the Jewish faith.
- R. L. -0/6-/2001 |
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Yes, if "Jews for Jesus" were "for Jesus" they would be Jews, since that is all the historical carpenter from Nazareth ever was. He lived as a Jew and died as a Jew, at the hands of gentiles, not Jews. And IF the recorded teachings of the Nazarene had been followed by those who claim his name, there never would have been "Christian" anti-semitism, or pogroms, or Shoah.
-0/6-/2001 |
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I am often wonder why a Christians have always demostrated such a propensity for violence. Not just against Jews but others as well including other Christians who do not believe just as they do.
- a. s. -0/6-/2001 |
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