Chapter 1: Mishna 5: Part 3
Yossi ben Yochanan Ish Yerushalaim says: Your home
should be open with abundance; poor people should be
members of your household; and don't carry on
excessive conversation with a woman. This was said in
relation to his wife. All the more so is it true with
the wife of his friend. This is the source for the
Rabbis who taught: A person who converses excessively
with women causes himself harm, distracts himself from
Torah study, and in the end he acquires Gehinom.
(There was some interesting feedback from the last set of shiurim on
the gender issues, and I need to repeat that the complexity of the topic,
coupled with its "political" nature, makes it very difficult to deal with
adequately in an electronic forum. It requires personal discussion in a
focused learning environment to clarify the Torah perspective based on
accurate interpretation of Chazal's teachings. I will try to deal with
one point that I raised which seems to have led to some misunderstanding,
then move on to the Maharal's summation of our Mishna.
(What I had intended as a thought provoking question -- How come the
men are the judges and Poskim -- seems to have led to some confusion.
(As we cover more ground in the Maharal, some of the confusion over
tzruah and chomer may be dispelled, and I hope the above didn't add to
the confusion. :-). Since the last shiur, there seem to be quite a few
new subscribers, and I ask them to bear with this shiur which is more
theoretical than is my usual intention, and is built on three earlier
shiurim, which may make it misleading.)
- "Tzurah" -- which refers to the abstract prinicple and the
direction to be taken -- and "Chomer" -- which refers to the physical
matter being utilized and guided to concretize the tzurah -- does not
deal with specifically with abilities. These are functions. Each role
is played in relation to the other, and implies certain functions in how
G-d wants the world to run. This is why Klal Yisrael can be described as
chomer in relation to G-d, as the tzurah; while also being described as
tzurah in relation to other nations of the world as chomer. The neshama,
the soul, is the tzurah to the guf, the physical body, as chomer. Moshe
Rabbeinu was tzurah in relation to Aharon HaCohen as chomer.
- The nature of the Posek in Jewish life is to clarify the
principles at work in any given situation, deciding which Halachot apply
and to set policy according to those principles. This is the function of
the "tzurah." While the Posek can't be oblivious to the practicalities
of the decision, he can't be unduly influenced by them, either. This was
the role of Moshe Rabbeinu in our pre-Pesach Dvar Torah. The "chomer"
role would then be to find the proper way to implement those policies.
So it is the male role to be the posek. This does NOT mean that all men
are suitable to be poskim just because of their gender. But the posek is
fulfilling the "tzurah" role, and it is from among those fulfilling this
role that we draw our poskim. Women certainly need to know Halacha, and
they certainly need to make Halachic decisions. They do it every day,
and in fact there are Halachot that they are entrusted with exclusively.
In the homes of many shul and communal Rabbis, the women answer
innumerable Halchic questions. But a posek is a very different function.
(To better understand the concept of chomer and tzurah in a
simplified form, we will use a concrete example: "table." The "chomer,"
the raw material of the table is wood.
[Please be careful in applying this simplified example too literally to
- Wood can be fashioned in any
number of ways in to any number of things. "Table" is the tzurah, the
function or construct, we are giving, injecting, in to the wood, the
chomer, the matter.
- It is specifically the "chomer" of the table
which can deteriorate, wear out, disintegrate. The "tzurah" of "table,"
as an abstract concept, doesn't deteriorate.
- Without wood, the
chomer, the tzurah would be useless. And without tzurah, an abstract
construct, the wood would remain potential, waiting for actualization.
(Now back to the Mishna - finally!)
"...and in the end he acquires Gehinom." Gehinom is the state of
"non-existence." It is the consequence of a person failing to fulfill
his role in this world, since he then lacks any connection to an eternal
existence. In this physical world, it is "chomer," the physical matter
which is subject to deterioration leading to its losing its existence.
"Tzurah" as referring to something abstract, is not subject to to this
deterioration. (Woman, as chomer, is more intimately involved in
physical life as well as death on a monthly basis. The nature of her
physical body, metabolism, etc. is also very different than a man's,
reflecting a "chomer" reality in contratst to a "tzurah" one.) If the
man, whose role is one of tzurah, attaches himself to the female role
through excessive involvement in her domain, (excessive conversation with
women) rather than fulfilling his role, he is attaching himself to a
deteriorating reality, which ultimately leads him to a state of non-
existence, gehinom, rather than eternity and Gan Eiden.
The woman, however, whose role in this world is chomer, is not led
to this state of non-existence, since she is FULFILLING her role through
attachment to and involvement with the physical world. As this world is
one of "chomer" of physical matter, she is uniquely positioned to know
how to deal with it. This is why the Gemara in Bava Metziah 59a
admonishes the husband to follow his wife's input in matters relating to
the "real" world and the home. This ensures existence in the physical
world, which is the role of the woman, and when she fulfills this role
she has a place in the eternal world equal to the man who fulfills his
role. But the man who descends from his assigned role, which should
transcend excessive involvement in a system which has certain physical
limitations and deteriorations, and attaches himself to the reality that
is subject to them, sets himself on a path leading to deterioration and
away from eternity.
(For those of you who are wondering, I have changed many a diaper
and washed many a dish in my "career." But Chazal's perspective, as
indicated from the ealier sources we quoted as well as many others, would
disagree with the prevalent attitude, which has beome developed into a
principle of our modern society, of equality between husband and wife in
every aspect of running the house. It is clear that the Torah's
principle is one of role differentiation. How this plays out in practice
is a very individual matter, based on personalities, talents and
circumstances. But the PRINCIPLE must be our starting point.)
So the three results of excessive conversation with women listed in
the Mishhah are not simply a dramatic way of telling us that this is
something one shouldn't do, but rather are very precisely formulated
consequences of that excess. As in all teachings of the Rabbis, they
don't use generalizations or approximations, but precise and accurate
statements, reflecting deep realities.
In summary, Yossi ben Yoezer and Yossi ben Yochanan are teaching us
perfection of the home in the service of G-d, one from the perspective of
love (follow the positive) and one from the perspective of fear and awe
(refrain from the negative). This follows the teaching of Antignos who
admonished us about our overall service of G-d, teaching that it should
be done with a combination of love and awe. Antignos, as the single
receiver of the transmission of the Torah, was on the level of being able
to embody both love and fear within himself and his teachings. From now
on, with the deterioration of the generations, the transmission passed
through pairs of Tanaim, one who taught his mussar, his discipline, from
the perspective of love of G-d, and one from the perspective of fear of
The class is taught by Rabbi Shaya Karlinsky,
Dean of Darche Noam Institutions, Yeshivat
Darche Noam/Shapell's and Midreshet Rachel for Women.
EMOR AND THE OMER:
Shlomo Katz - 5772
Rabbi Yisroel Ciner - 5758
Shlomo Katz - 5770
Not Free Yet
Rabbi Pinchas Winston - 5763
The Role of the Priests
Rabbi Pinchas Winston - 5772
What is "Holy"!?
Rabbi Label Lam - 5763
A Count of Anticipation
Rabbi Yehudah Prero - 5758
Give Me Liberty
Rabbi Naftali Reich - 5767
When It Really Counts
Rabbi Pinchas Winston - 5764
The Perennial Harvest
Rabbi Yisroel Ciner - 5765
Forced to Be Holy
Rabbi Yaakov Menken - 5762
Actions Ripple Across the Masses
Rabbi Yaakov Menken - 5757
Two Dimensions In The Measure of Man
Understanding Relationships With G-d
Rabbi Yosef Kalatsky - 5763
Going Against the Tide
Rabbi Eliyahu Hoffmann - 5762
In a World - Minus Peace
Rabbi Label Lam - 5770